Israel and Lebanon

July 15th, 2006

You know, I’m sick and tired of this whole “you wronged us, therefore you will pay” attitude that there seems to be in international politics today. Both sides of the whole terrorism thing seem to have that attitude.

But the latest sanity-defying news is that Israel is bombing wheat silos, food stores, and lines of civilians trying to escape Lebanon. Huh? What is the strategic value in having starving civilians in Lebanon? To me, it seems like a recipe to make things worse for Israel. You kill people’s family in Lebanon, and you create large numbers of very mad family members that now have a reason to plan terrorist attacks on Israel.

It defies sense.

Why don’t people try to value human life for once, everywhere?

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  1. Jaime

    I’m _so_ glad this is getting picked up on the planets… I couldn’t agree with you more.

    Signed, just another debian user.

    Reply

  2. Pupeno

    It also sucks that it seems nobody is doing anything for Lebanon.
    It seems like when USA invaded Afghanistan and Iraq, it just happened and no matter how terrible it was nobody did anything, nobody dared to do anything, the protests died in a couple of hours.
    Now Israel is invading Lebanon and there’s not even a protest. And all the reasons for the invasion can be totally false and made up (like USA’s).
    I am starting to feel a deep, deep disgust for Israel and I can’t help but think that if they get bombings on their streets (what normally is called terrorism, but I say that Israel is the terrorist!) they were just searching for it… they may even deserve it (oh, the poor civilians of Israel, so innocent… where are the civilians protesting against the atrocities of their own government… a government they voted if I am not mistaken).
    I am so angry and sad :(

    Reply

    John Goerzen Reply:

    You’re right. I find the lines between terrorism and defense to be extremely blurry in this one.

    Bombing escaping buses, food warehouses, etc…. It seems like both sides are doing the exact same things, and they’re both sickening, deplorable, and wrong.

    Reply

  3. pabs

    Perhaps they see that humanity needs to be destroyed and are starting with their neighbours ;)

    In all seriousness, yes, the situation is utter insanity.

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  4. Gal

    You are so wrong!

    Have you ever though about the main picture?
    This whole thing started on last Wednesday – Hisbolla terrorist have entered Israel teritory and kidnapped 2 Israeli solders in order to ask for a 1000 prisoners with blood on their hand for the 2 solders.
    Israel can’t agree to such terms and the Hisbolla has bomb some cities in the north of Israel.
    Israel reaction was to bomb places which are used to hide Hisbola terrorist and continue massive bombing Israeli cities.

    Israel reaction was to bomb Hisbola places in Lebanon.
    This war is not aginst Lebanon – it’s against the Hisbola and has few targets:
    1). Destory Hisbola weapons.
    2). Kickout the Hisbolla from the Israeli border and make sure Lebanon army will be there instead.
    3). Return home the kidnapped solders.

    The Lebanon citizens out aware to the situation and that the Hisbolla is responsible for this situation and they want them out too.
    Israel want peace in the middle east – the problem is that Isarael surrounded by terorists who just want revenge.

    It is easy to be somewhere in Europe or gods know where you live and talk about one side.
    Have you seen the damages the Hisoblla did to Israel?
    The citizens their bombs killed? – i guess not. you saw only TV pictures of Israely plans bombing Beirut – the difference is that Israel tries to focus on Hisbolla based areas and before each bomb is awaring the citizens to leave those places.

    I wonder how did you feel if someone was kidnapping one of your beloveds or bombing your house.

    I writing again – they started and crossed a red line, and pushed Israel to such a reaction. Israel didn’t did anything.
    Even most of the arabs countries blame the Hisbolla for this situation.

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  5. Simon

    “What is the strategic value in having starving civilians in Lebanon?”

    Short answer — people who are looking for food aren’t firing missiles at you. Food, power, water, don’t come with a label — for civilian use only.

    The problem here is what constitutes “enemy” where they form part of the government, and where they have fired hundreds of missiles, it is likely necessary to treat Lebanon as an enemy state (or at least vast parts of it). People don’t have hundreds of missiles to fire unless they are prepared, and backed by states — you try getting an antiship missile.

    Reality is Syria and/or Iran have been planning this for a while. Presumably the intelligence services know which, although if anyone will believe them now is another question. Israel is claiming it is largely Iranian backed, and the Iranian president is barking mad, so it is likely true.

    No one will admit it, and no one is prepared to admit what needs to be done if Israel wants to survive. The only way things will change, and Israel survive, is if those states that support its demise are dealt with.

    “Why don’t people try to value human life for once, everywhere?”

    The Israeli’s value their own, which is precisely why they are doing what they are doing. And I suspect their opponents will make similar claims, although I’m fairly cynical of those claims, since most seem intimately connected with those using Islamic extremists for their own purposes.

    The US and UN got horribly involved in the Lebanon thing, and settled for a “peace” that allowed Hizbollah to regroup and rearm, rather than dealing with the problems behind Lebanons civil war. One has to wonder if “peace” was the right thing to press for at all costs, that only works if all parties have an intention of maintaining it.

    Reply

    Ben Reply:

    Perhaps you’d like to explain the rationale for bombing Beirut airport? Were Hisbollah going to use it to launch some of their many military aircraft?

    Let’s not lose sight of the fact that the military disparity between the sides is massive and the Israelis have all the firepower.

    Even the Israeli media are questioning the wisdom of their military’s actions. None of their air attacks so far are going to stop Hisbollah firing at them. They are quite simply retalition for the sake of retaliation. “An eye for an eye” served up to placate an Isreali public as it has been since the beginning of this bloody conflict.

    Reply

    John Goerzen Reply:

    I think there is a good deal of selective memory going on in these two extreme pro-Israel comments so far. The first poster completely ignored the fact that Israel has destroyed the means for the Lebanese to escape, while simultaneously saying “we warned them to escape”. Both are forgetting that Hezbollah is a minority, and a small one at that, in Lebanon. And if your attitude is to cut off all food so that Hezbollah starves — well, you’re making sure that Lebanon starves. Seems like a war crime to me.

    If Israel were attacking Hezbollah sites only, I think the international outcry on this would be a lot more muted.

    But c’mon, attacking a bus of fleeing civilians? What on earth is the point of that?

    Also, I am tired of this “value their own” attitude. The US does far too much of that, too. I think that a human life is valuable because it is a life, and it doesn’t matter which country’s papers the person is carrying.

    Reply

  6. Ben

    Re: valuing human life.

    It is hardly commendable to respond to John’s point “Why don’t people try to value human life” with “the Israelis value their own”. I think that is exactly the problem that John is alluding to. Both sides value human life only when it shares the same race or religion. That is why there is so little sympathy for Israel outside the US, because their response to terrorism is always so disproportionate and seems to demonstrate every time a complete scorn for human life when it is not “their own”.

    Reply

    Ben Israel Reply:

    The Israeli Army has non Jews in it’s ranks, There are Muslim Arabs in the Israeli Army.

    In Hisbolla and Hammas only Muslims.

    The fact that the Jews were ethnic cleansed from the Arab countries means there are no Jewiash communities left.

    The fact is that 1,000,000 Arabs live in Israel as Israelis some are Christain and others Muslim.

    Reply

  7. Gal

    Israel didn’t destroyed the ways to escape.

    Israel bomb the main road of Beirut-Damessek to make sure weapons from Syria will not get to Hisbollah hands. also Israel bomb the airport. There are still ways for citizens to get out and citizens did went out.

    The bus was a sad mistake, and not planed target. the Lebanon citizens don’t starves – the fights are going only few days and they have were to go to. I and citizens in Israel don’t happy with the fact that this is effecting citizens – the Lebanon government is the one which responsible for this.
    On May 2000 – Israel has left Lebanon land – instead of making sure the Lebaon army (country) will be responsible for the border – they allowed Hisbollah to be there, get armed with more and more weapons, and finally doing the things they did last week which started this damned war. The Lebanon goverment and citizens are aware to this fact and finally they are speaking against the Hisbollah, which they are well see responsible for their situation.

    Israel has tried to be very and mean very patience in the last few years to the Hisbollah, but the Hisbollah has brought it on them selves.
    The Hisbolla is leaded by a crazy religious person which doesn’t care if all people will die – he only cares about destroying Israel and western world like Bin-Laden and his terror group.

    You are only seeing here one side – it is always easy to see on side of the coin. do you know how many funerals took place today in Israel or how many kids are sleeping with fear?

    It is easy to be in Europe, see on the TV only the pictures were Israel bombs and blame Israel.

    I will remind again that Israel didn’t do anything or any army action till last Wednesday. the Hisbollah started this damn war and dragged innocent citizens to this.

    Israel has all the rights to protect here citizens.
    About human life – I agree – it an higher value. but what will you do if someone will try to kill you and it will be either your life or his – will you let him kill you?
    Be sure that I want this to over as soon as possible with less killing.

    We almost had peace in the late 90′s with Syria, but then Assad (senior) died and his stupid son – Assad junior has became Nessralla’s Muppet.
    Israel was willing to give parts of it country for this and Israel is very small country – (just to make this point clear: It take 7 – 9 hours of driving from north to south and 2-4 hours from east to west) – there are counrties in the States and in Europe which are larger then this small State all there other parth of this coursed middle east belongs to the Moslim Arabs.

    Reply

    pen Reply:

    gal, you are just sooo wrong!!

    Reply

  8. Gal

    “Why don’t people try to value human life for once, everywhere?”

    But this is human life — existence at the edge: revenge, retaliation, and rageragerage.

    “What is the strategic value in having starving civilians in Lebanon?”

    Tbe strategic value is they’ll be more aware of G-d. There’s nothing that G-d loves more than a prayer for the bare necessities of life, i.e. food, clothing, and a fragile sense of security.

    Reply

  9. Hannah

    Where on earth are you getting your information from? In what world do you think a democratic country would bomb lines of citizens?? Seriously do not print lies… it is so wrong and misleading! I suggest you have a rethink and look at the actual locations that Israel is bombing… then also take into account that they send warnings to evacuate the area beforehand to all the innocent civilians.

    This is 100% more than the terrorist organisations have done for the citizens of the world in Israel, in New York (9/11) and in London (7/7).

    DO NOT FORGET THAT HEZBOLLAH AND HAMAS ARE TERRORISTS!!

    I wish there was a spam prevention code for stopping idiots like you from printing falsehoods on the web! You need to take some responsibility for the drivvle you write!

    Reply

  10. kirklin

    The first casualty of war is the truth…and nationalistic zeal defies all reason.

    Reply

  11. The Changelog

    I was surprised by the reactions to my story Saturday on Israel and Lebanon. Several pro-Israel posters are apparently in complete denial about what the Israeli military forces are doing.

    Today, the American network ABC reported that Israel had bombed

    Reply

  12. drcursor

    Strange… only attacking Hizbollah places?
    So why was the beirute port bombed? And why was it bombed right on the time to prevent french and portuguese to escape in a boat?
    Are European Citizens considered terrorists?

    Reply

    Ben Israel Reply:

    Why Bomb Air Ports?

    Simple! Roads, Bridges, Ports, Airports etc are all strategic targets in war to prevent re supply of Arms and other materials reaching the enemy.

    Actauly Israel made sure the Airport runways were only bombed to prevent commercial trafic from landing but left enough of the runways intact to allow Military transport planes to land and bring aid.

    If the Lebanese Goverment had excersized it soverignty to prevent arms reaching Hisbola the war would not have even taken place.

    The War Crime of negligence is clearly one the Lebanese government is 100% guilty of!

    Reply

    george Amoun Reply:

    You are 100% correct, The Lebanese goverment are the “patsys” of Syria who are inturn are dependent on Iran for survival.

    Lebanon will fall into Islamic doom and darkness unless this Islamic Nazism is defeated.

    why so many people in the West can not see what they are facing and how Israel should be commended in doing the job others are too scared to do them selves.

    Thank you Israel

    from a Christian Lebanese

    Reply

  13. Anonymous

    Humanitarian points aside, the strategy of this whole situation has me confused.

    If I understand correctly, the Hezbollah was specifically formed sometime in 1982-85 to expel Israel and Western forces from Lebanon. They then proceeded to resist being wiped out by both the South Lebanon Army (the local Israeli proxy army) and the actual Israeli army, and in fact finally crushed the later and forced the former to withdraw in 2000 (although I would imagine some will claim that to have not been so much a defeat as an accelerated treaty withdrawl).

    Anyway, how then does Israel plan to do better now then they did in the prior 18 years when they actually occupied the country (the only net effect of which appears to be a lot of misery and the creation of the very group they are now trying to get rid of)?

    My personal best guess is that both current and past events are more the effect of a long term slight oscillation in power in key government positions between those with an “accept no prisoners” point of view and those with a “softer” approach. The net effect of which is, if Israel is viewer as a unified entity (as apposed to something like a schizophrenic entity with multiple personalities), a very confusing foreign policy.

    Maybe Brownian motion (or more likely fractional Brownian motion) would make a good model for governments, and stochastic control theory could finally provide some solutions for long term stability.

    Reply

    Ben Israel Reply:

    Actualy The SLA was not a proxy Army of Israel but an ally.

    The SLA were part of the Chrisdtiam Maronite Militia who were the defenders of Lebanon against Muslim foreign influence dedicated to the removal of any non Muslim authority from the area.

    Hisbola and other Islamic terror groups are meerly fighting to impose radical Islam to dominate the whole middle east especialy Lebanon & Israel.

    Reply

  14. a.a

    hisbolla should stop now. but isreal should get out. isreali killing everyone. isreali not killing hisbolla they are killing normal people. if continue killing public then i will said kill all isreali. sorry for this. too many life gone

    Reply

  15. Mark Israel

    Would Israel get more sympathy if it decided to show the victims of Hisbola’s rockets?

    Israel is guilty of not using the images of Mutilated, burned and crying victims unlike those poor victims in Lebanon who are a usefull tool in the TV properganda war.

    People should be happy that there are less victims in Israel or are they regarding this stragic situation like a foot ball game hoping for a better score ballance!

    If Israel used it’s civilians as shields to hide behing or their homes as bunkers & ammo dumps the score would be more even!

    Arabs know very well how Israel responds to those who would like Israel wiped out, yes Israel has a strong army, they need it, surrouinded by 150,000,000 Arabs, the small nation of Jews 7,000,000 holding onto a small strip of land consisting to 1% of the Middle Easts land mass!

    Reply

    Mookie Fallah Reply:

    As I am half Arab & half Jewish I can add a little more to the subject of how the Arab mentality when in the extreem mode is capapable in choosing death as a suitable responce to an issue.

    what do I mean? well the fact is a Jewish mother would never allow one of her siblings to be sacrificed or martyred for any cause or religious belief.

    After many genocides and ending with the Holocaust no Jews has taken it upon themselves to become a sucide bomber or a terrorists killing innocent Europeans.

    The Arabs have had hardships but mainly from their own leaders, but they have never suffered to any where near that of the Jewish people.

    Compared to Arabs especualy Muslim Arabs, the Jews value life to the extreem, this is why Hisbolla & Hammas kidnap Israeli soldiers knowing the pain it causes and the responce.

    Arabs often mistake Jewish compromise as a weakness and never seem to realise that compromise as well as flexability are both signs of real strength.

    Until the Arab world reaches the same level of understanding the Jewish nation has, they will remain a people who believe in their own lies and remain in ignorence justified by lies repeated and repeated like a broken record by their wealthy and power addicted leaders, who only say things what the people want to hear but in reality are fooling the fools.

    After 60 years look at the Arab world & then look at Israel, it speaks for it self! yet you fucking idiots who I share the same blood with wont see it,blinded by bigotry & hate.

    Just like the tales of the 101 Arabian nights you are living in a dream and you are rulled by Ali Bababas who are stealing your lives away generation after generation!

    The jews did not put it’s people in refugeecamps to rot, but the Arab did it to their own, shame on you and shame on those who blame other instead of dealing with your brother and sisters who are offerd death as the only escape.

    Learn from the Jews the same way you learned from Jews like Abraham, Issaac, Jacob, Moses & Jesus!

    Reply

  16. The Changelog

    So recently the prime minister of Iraq criticized Israel for a disproportionate response in their attacks against Lebanon. I don’t know his exact words, but in general, I agree with that sentiment.

    It’s no big surprise that Bush and Republican leaders

    Reply

  17. adel

    Well, I don’t know what to tell you……… America has been, is, and will always be the melting pot of the world…

    It all comes down to two things; peace, and justice ……. What should come first?

    Not all are Jesus Christ……When one is treated unjustly, what should he do?…..
    Some react with terrorism…. Others would resist like Gandhi did, and yet other would turn the other cheek …

    If its up to me I would choose turning the other cheek, cause you can’t combat violence with violence, and the only way to beat violence is with love….Jesus is right all along……..

    What would cause Binladin to commit such an outrageous act?…..

    It seems that it became a crime to even ask that question……

    but, no question shouldn’t be asked.. and no stone should be left unturned!!…

    If you ask many of the American / western politicians, the naïve answer you’ll get; is that those people hate the freedom / the American way, and just want to destroy that philosophy..!!…

    I can’t accept that…… and the problem here is that an answer like that, closes the door to any future hope of deliverance….

    I can understand having one crazy person who believes in that, two, hundred … thousand….. But it seems that the ideology of punishing people for the mistakes of their governments is gaining ground, and more and more people are subscribing to it every day!!…. what is being termed terrorism…..

    Something is wrong with that picture and unless we start to dig for the real roots of that blind, desperate hatred towards America and the west, things will get even worse…….

    A start could be to realize that hatred is being wrongly or ignorantly directed towards the western / American people, while it originates out of what is perceived to be an unjust, double standard foreign policy…

    This blind support of the right winged Israeli government is a major cause……

    There are forces of war/evil and there are forces of Peace/Goodness in all the countries of the Middle East…

    It would be a good question to ask who the western / European / American governments are supporting?. … And, most importantly for what reasons or objectives?….

    Here is a simple example…..Israel says we won’t discuss peace with terrorists….When the attacks on Israel seize and only then, we would discuss any peace settlement, and of course the west lead by the US government agrees…..

    It’s like that; I get in and occupy your house….So, you start to resist me…I’m much stronger than you and beat every time you try …. I deny your right to co-exist….so; you start to deploy desperate measures “terrorism”… Then I call you a terrorist, and give you one option…. You stop fighting, accept that I have occupied you house….and once you do that….I’ll sit down with you and see if I can give you the small bathroom for you and all your family to live in..!!!…..

    No way out…. A vicious circle of violence…

    What comes first; peace or justice??????

    Look at Lebanon, Israel withdraw from Lebanon….all but a small piece of land….what the excuse is “shibaa is a Syrian land and not Lebanese….As if that justify Israel’s occupation of it…..They returned the Lebanese prisoners…..all but four of them…… for what reason????? What was expected of Lebanon?….. were they supposed to say its OK that land is small Israel can just keep it…or…. those four prisoners are worthless and so Israel can have them..?…

    Lebanon tried to free those prisoners and liberate that land through political means….”As has Syria been doing for decades with the Golan heights…which Israel admits is Syrian land….but still won’t give it back” with No luck….
    This gives ground for hizbola, and so, Hizbola gains ground and captures two Israeli soldiers and declares that the only objective is to trade for the Lebanese prisoners….Israel cried wolf…and destroyed Lebanon….

    Those two Israeli soldiers are worth destroying Lebanon for …..But the four Lebanese prisoners how’d been in Israeli jails for decades are worthless…. And, the US government agrees and ships more arms to Israel in order to cause more destruction!!!…. Double standards……

    So, binladin also wins …All he has to do is to point to the TV and comment by stating “this is what America is doing, watch how it is killing your children”…..

    To the ordinary people in the streets it becomes difficult to distinguish between the western people and their government’s foreign policy…..

    To those who are a bit smarter… they respond by stating that the west is a democracy, and so, what the governments of the western world do is certainly supported by the western people, and thus, those people are responsible, and that justifies attacking them ….!!…

    What do we do..?…..

    Do we respond by saying that it is estimated that only a very small percentage of the western people follow, or even care about what their governments are doing in the world?……

    Do we respond by saying that the majority of the western people have been brain washed and thus don’t see right from wrong when it comes to foreign policy..?….

    I really don’t know how to respond anymore…….. Peace,… An eye for an eye blinds the world….. All is meaningless to those deprived of justice….

    I try to say; turn the other cheek….. Fight hatred and injustice with love and tolerance … Try to say that to a Palestinian who is treated like an animal in his land, who’d accepted to form a country over less than 20% of the old Palestine and is still not being able to.

    A right long denied is a right rejected; as Martin Luther King said.

    All of this with US government supplying 10 Billion dollars per year to Israel and providing unrestricted military support.

    You may only need to check on the history of the UN…. Check how many times the US government used the Vito to block even the simplest condemnation towards Israel, against the will of the rest of the world….!!…… For what, or for whom..??…..

    I have a few people that I chat with online sometimes and they are from Israel… the difference is that they belong to the Peace movement in Israel…and they have the same worries and the same questions…….

    All I can say is that the next time you hear about a person placing an add encouraging the killing of western civilians as happened in a Pakistani newspaper, responded not in displaying disguised patriotism, or, in listing all the wonderful things that the west represent…. but, think, what can we do to get those governments of ours to display the simplest rules of reason and justice..

    Peace, Love, Joy, and Justice

    Reply

    Star of Israel Reply:

    Israel are holding only 2 Lebanese prisoners, one is a Lebanese Jew convicted of supplying miliasry secrets to Hisbolla and the other is serving a life sentence for Murdering a 4 year old girl with the butt of his machine gun.

    What crime were the 2 soldiers guilty of? Being Jews?

    Reply

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