Has modern Linux lost its way? (Some thoughts on jessie)

For years, I used to run Debian sid (unstable) on all my personal machines. Laptops, workstations, sometimes even my personal servers years ago ran sid. Sid was, as its name implies, unstable. Sometimes things broke. But it wasn’t a big deal, because I could always get in there and fix it fairly quickly, whatever it was. It was the price I paid for the latest and greatest.

For the last number of months, I’ve dealt with a small but annoying issue in jessie: None of Nautilus, Thunar, or digikam (yes, that represents Gnome, XFCE, and KDE) can mount USB drives I plug in anymore. I just get “Not authorized to perform operation.” I can, of course, still mount -o uid=1000 /dev/sdc1 /mnt, but I miss the convenience of doing it this way.

One jessie system I switched to systemd specifically to get around this problem. It worked, but I don’t know why. I haven’t had the time to switch my workstation, and frankly I am concerned about it.

Here’s the crux of the issue: I don’t even know where to start looking. I’ve googled this issue, and found all sorts of answers pointing to polkit, or dbus, or systemd-shim, or cgmanager, or lightdm, or XFCE, or… I found a bug report of this exact problem — Debian #760281, but it’s marked fixed, and nobody replied to my comment that I’m still seeing it.

Nowhere is it documented that a Digikam mounting issue should have me looking in polkit, let alone cgmanager. And even once I find those packages, their documentation suffers from Bad Unix Documentation Disease: talking about the nitty-gritty weeds view of something, without bothering to put it in context. Here is the mystifying heading for the cgmanager(8) manpage:

cgmanager is a daemon to manage cgroups. Programs and users can make D-Bus requests to administer cgroups over which they have privilege. To ensure that users may not exceed their privilege in manipulating cgroups, the cgroup manager accepts regular D-Bus requests only from tasks within its own process-id and user namespaces. For tasks in private namespaces (such as containers), SCM-enhanced D-Bus calls are available. Using these manually is not recommended. Rather, each container is advised to run a cgproxy, which will forward plain D-Bus requests as SCM-enhanced D-Bus requests to the host cgmanager.

That’s about as comprehensible as Vogon poetry to me. How is cgmanager started? What does “SCM-enhanced” mean? And I even know what a cgroup is.

This has been going on for months, which has me also wondering: is it only me? (Google certainly suggests it’s not, and there are plenty of hits for this exact problem with many distros, and some truly terrible advice out there to boot.) And if not, why is something so basic and obvious festering for so long? Have we built something that’s too complex to understand and debug?

This is, in my mind, orthogonal to the systemd question. I used to be able to say Linux was clean, logical, well put-together, and organized. I can’t really say this anymore. Users and groups are not really determinitive for permissions, now that we have things like polkit running around. (Yes, by the way, I am a member of plugdev.) Error messages are unhelpful (WHY was I not authorized?) and logs are nowhere to be found. Traditionally, one could twiddle who could mount devices via /etc/fstab lines and perhaps some sudo rules. Granted, you had to know where to look, but when you did, it was simple; only two pieces to fit together. I’ve even spent time figuring out where to look and STILL have no idea what to do.

systemd may help with some of this, and may hurt with some of it; but I see the problem more of an attitude of desktop environments to add features fast without really thinking of the implications. There is something to be said for slower progress if the result is higher quality.

Then as I was writing this, of course, my laptop started insisting that it needed the root password to suspend when I close the lid. And it’s running systemd. There’s another quagmire…

Update: Part 2 with some reactions to this and further thoughts is now available.

124 thoughts on “Has modern Linux lost its way? (Some thoughts on jessie)

  1. You’re not alone.

    I’m facing the exact same problems(and many more) for months and my only way to keep a barely usable Debian testing/unstable system is to keep a bunch of pinned packages, more than 50 (xinit, gvfs, policykit, udev, X, mesa, intel video driver, etc). There is so many nearly unusable apps in testing/unstable that I can’t think that Debian is about to be released in that state. Evince since its port to GTK3 is a pretty good example, an absolute unusable/unstable nonsense. The same goes for many apps ported to GTK3 and even GTK3 it self. Midori, not updated since more than two years should be considered a serious security concern and removed from the Debian repository.

    I will not list all of them here, but all I can say is that I use Debian testing/unstable on my desktop since nearly 12 years and this is the first time I seriously consider exploring something else.

    Reply

    Geoffrey Reply:

    Try FreeBSD. You get most of the benefits of Debian, including excellent package management support, without the recent stupidity that has basically ruined the usability and reliability of Debian.

    The FreeBSD community has their priorities straight, so I think the risk of them doing what Debian has done lately is next to nil.

    Switching from Debian to FreeBSD is one of the best things I’ve done lately. I sometimes wish I had done it sooner!

    Reply

    alex Reply:

    How about reporting these issues as bugs, then? Your experience is not universal; most people I talk to don’t see such problems and the current list of rc-bugs in Jessie doesn’t seem to list anything similar to what you describe. If the developers don’t know about these things, they can’t work on fixing them. Measured by open bugs, Jessie is in a quite good state.
    The release will happen when there are no more open rc bugs. So if you don’t want Jessie to be released in its current state, you simply have to report the bugs you experience and present the reasons why you think that they should be classified as release critical.

    BTW: Upstream Evince has used GTK3 since version 3.0 released in April 2011, and in Debian since Wheezy. So if the GTK3-transition is the cause of your problems, they have existed for quite a long time already.

    Reply

    John Goerzen Reply:

    There has been some activity on the bug I linked, and I’ve reopened it.

    This problem does not exist only in Debian (a simple Google will show that). But a large part of the problem is nobody even knows where to submit the bug. Look at that bug I linked. **7** bugs were merged together. They were reported against 6 different packages! And some of them took a rather circuitous route before being merged, too. Users don’t know what’s going on, and many devs don’t either. This is not a slam on users or devs, but a commentary on the excessive complexity of the system.

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    alex Reply:

    John, yes probably I should have been clearer: My comment was meant as a response to tibrin’s earlier comment. I know that your problem is (or at least has been) a known bug, but tibrin’s probably aren’t.

    Sorry for the confusion.

    John Goerzen Reply:

    Ah, right you are. My mistake.

    tibrin Reply:

    @alex

    If I had the delicacy to mention that I use Debian testing/unstable exclusively for almost twelve years, this is to avoid having to respond to such comments.

    I already know how Debian and all the GNU/Linux ecosystem works, thank you!

    And bugs not considered RC by their respectives package maintainer, don’t make those apps more usable on a daily basis. Evince, xserver-xorg-video-intel and midori are three perfect examples of that and yes, all the issues about those apps that I have referred, have all been reported at least once if not more.

    Have a nice day.

    Reply

    tibrin Reply:

    Midori has not been updated for more than three years in Debian, my mistake.

    @Geoffrey,

    I don’t know much about the different BSD OS and lack of time prevents me from putting the time needed for learning more about them. Maybe this summer.

    Reply

  2. Oh John, I feel your pain although not (yet) in a systemd world as my distro of choice is Slackware. Besides Gentoo and quite a few other distros, these are the solely reps of this ever growing strange world of elegance and simplicity Linux once was.

    Non systemd users and distros are quickly becoming a threat. The big bucks behind projects like systemd, pulseaudio, ahavi and, most recently, GNOME and KDE where very competent on training some great minds behind software development as puppets for their interests.

    For these companies, well guarded by their ‘developers army’ posing as ‘cool people’, users and distros who KISS are not profitable. This class of hateful people can think, fix their own problems and, most dangerous yet, do have and is willing to make a choice. As such, these bestial human beings must be silenced and ideologically forced to move toward those companies agenda, in the same sense Winston Smith did in 1984.

    IMHO, you did have a point in asking if ‘Has modern Linux lost its way?’ It’s indeed quite disappointing when your USB mounting issues is nowhere under the hood of your own knowledge (the one you already have or can freely acquire) and your CLI.

    Reply

    tYY Reply:

    Well, I use systemd daily at home and at work, with Arch Linux. Things are neither better nor worse than they used to be.
    The real problem is NOT systemd. The problem is the rising complexity of the system (for good reasons, I’m sure). I’ve had a problem with keyboard layout for months, and I don’t even know what program to send the bug against! Some talk on IRC was just met with “does not happen on my PC…”.

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  3. You are not alone.

    I am also losing the battle against the growing complexity of my laptop running ArchLinux with systemd.

    Reply

    max Reply:

    I like it how the vim package on Arch now has Python and Ruby as hard dependencies :)

    Reply

    A. Reply:

    And Lua!

    Reply

  4. I had a similar problem where I couldn’t import the photo from my phone to Shotwell. The error message told me that Shotwell wasn’t able to access th USB device (or something like that).

    After investigating, it seems that it was because when I plugged in my phone, Nautilus rushed to mount it and to give me access with the file Manager. But doing so blocks MTP access to my phone which is what Shotwell uses to access the photos.

    The solution: Unmount (or “eject”) my phone before trying to import my photos from Shotwell (and don’t forget to unlock your phone beforehand)

    I didn’t have any problem since then. Maybe you can try it.

    Reply

    digi_owl Reply:

    Why i have Thunar set up to not automagically mount anything, but still can get it to mount when clicking a removable storage device.

    Reply

  5. I’ve the same issue on one machine as well. Interestinly it works on another one. But I also have no clue where to look. I’ve also already started to look through Debian Bugreports, but I also don’t get the connections between all the stuff involved (udisks, policykit, PAM, systemd-shim, …) sorted out, so I’m quite lost as well.

    Reply

  6. The systemd and GNOME 3 communities (they’re pretty much one and the same) are the problem here. They’re killing the Debian project.

    Debian worked very well up until relatively recently, when systemd and GNOME 3 were forced upon us. It has been all down hill since then.

    Systemd needs to be removed from Debian immediately. GNOME 3 needs to be removed from Debian if it depends on systemd in a way that can’t be patched.

    I’ve already moved to FreeBSD, where this sort of nonsense just isn’t tolerated. I will never again consider Debian (and thus Linux, since Debian is the best of the Linux distributions) until systemd is permanently gone from it.

    Reply

    John Goerzen Reply:

    This is your one warning. Trolling like this will not be tolerated on my blog.

    Reply

    Geoffrey Reply:

    I’m obviously not trolling, John. Instead of threats, how about you explain how I’m wrong, or how you disagree?

    I do hope that you do the right thing, and discuss this matter, rather than just deleting my comments.

    My Debian systems worked fine until systemd was pulled in during routine updates. After systemd was installed, their reliability totally dried up. Since I value reliability, my systems no longer run Debian.

    Reply

    John Goerzen Reply:

    I removed your other comment that repeated your above troll.

    This post is not about the systemd decision. Hyperbolically stating things that are verifiably false (systemd being “forced” upon us) certainly seems like trolling to me. systemd was not my first choice either, but I have had way too much of people claiming systemd is the root of all evil, it’s dooming Debian, it’s been forced on people, etc. all over the Internet. Take it outside.

    Roger Leigh Reply:

    It it really trolling though?

    There is a close connection between GNOME and systemd; they share many developers.

    These projects have effectively forced a large number of changes into Debian (and most other distributions). We can debate whether we should have pushed back on some of the changes, and of their individual merits and shortcomings, but that it has happened and that we collectively permitted it to happen is not in doubt.

    I’ve also mostly migrated to FreeBSD at this point, and it’s a welcome breath of fresh air. Not something I wanted to do after using and developing Debian for nearly 18 years now, but there has IME been a rather rapid and dramatic decline in the quality of testing and unstable over the last 18 months. The quality and robustness of the jessie release, particularly with regards to upgrades, is likely to be the poorest of all releases to date. I can’t help but feel that (to bring this back on topic) that this is due to the lack of focus and rapid code churn of these projects which have reduced the overall quality of the system as a whole, and that we were much better off when a single user, let alone developer, could comprehend how the system worked from the moment you pushed the power button. The myriad laters of nasty glue which run on a current system are overly complex, poorly specified, and constantly changing.

    Reply

    John Goerzen Reply:

    Well, you didn’t see some of the comments I deleted — but I keep seeing all this “Debian shoved systemd down our throats” comments all over the net and this is not the forum for them. The troll/flamewars usually start similarly to that original comment.

    But, anyhow, I 100% agree that we are much better off when the system is understandable. I am both relieved and saddened to see that I am not alone in finding the modern Linux desktop incomprehensible.

    I do, however, find this “move to FreeBSD” approach a bit puzzling; isn’t the same userland that’s in Linux coming there?

  7. I have used Debian for decades altogether. I am searching for many distros and cannot conclude a option. I don’t want systemd. the last I can tolerate is upstart or init-ng level sysvinit replacements. I’ve tested FreeBSD 7 years back and during that time, It was catching up with Linux with a long gap. I wonder, what are the real options that exists if ever Linux even though with GPL et al are gone for the monopolists?slackware is not a option so do Gentoo. I’ve installed a stage 2 gentoo long back. But, I need apt-get as I am spoon fed to use it for these many years. Really, Nothing meets my need of a simple, UNIX based distro with a good Desktop environment. Currently following deepin, elementary etc although they are newbish, something interesting overall. Else, FreeBSD.

    Reply

    Geoffrey Reply:

    A lot has changed in the world of FreeBSD over the path 7 years. If you haven’t tried it since then, I think you should give FreeBSD 10 a shot. I think you’ll be pleasantly surprised at how well it works as a desktop OS.

    Reply

  8. > Here’s the crux of the issue: I don’t even know where to start looking.

    Talk to me about it. I run Arch on my laptop that lost the ability to play sound from the speakers, but just speakers since headphones work just fine when I plug them. Lost half of a day trying to figure this out already, and I am not even close to a solution that doesn’t end up as: install Ubuntu.

    Reply

    PAPPP Reply:

    I’ve been hunting the same on a Thinkpad T510 running Arch, it seems to be related to this power management issue going back into 2013 or so, and the new regression may have been between Kernel 3.17 and 3.18, but I’m not 100% convinced of that. My Windows partition now makes an ugly speaker power on click every time it makes a sound, so I suspect it’s really a problem with Lenovo’s firmware, but an update to that didn’t fix it.

    Sometimes I can get it to kick the speakers back on temporarily by doing a “hda-verb /dev/snd/hwC0D0 0x1f SET_POWER_STATE 0” as suggested in the old bug, but that hasn’t been working reliably recently.

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  9. Mounting through a GUI in a well-defined system-wide manner has always been a pain. The way it worked changed every half- to two years. KDE had its way of doing things, gnome as well, and others probably as well. Some solutions worked by graphically sudoing, or having some esoteric daemon handling this, for which every desktop had its own frontend.

    Admitted some of these old “solutions” were flat layered, and logical and you could follow the indirection. But it was always different. To accommodate everybody something like udisk may seem daunting, but that’s the price of having something which needs to cater to everybody. On the other hand, no more fstab editing, no more root.

    So has it become worse? It depends, how you look at it.

    Reply

  10. Using Debian unstable, I had a similar permission problem a while back, which after much confusion turned out to be related to my use of startx (which again was due to gdm3 being either confusing or broken for such a long time that I gave up on it).

    https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=747882

    In general, I have noticed the same, that login managers, polkit, network-manager, systemd etc. have made some things a lot more complicated and difficult to track, but they do also each serve a good purpose. I wouldn’t yet say anyone has lost their way, but rather that we’re having some transitional trouble.

    Reply

  11. I don’t know whether this is related but I recently had issues mounting a USB drive from KDE. The error message might have been similar – I don’t remember. I then discovered that there was an old entry in /etc/fstab for that device. Removing this entry fixed the problem. The bug” here was that the error message did not give me a pointer where to look for the problem.

    Reply

  12. Try something along the lines of:

    cat >/etc/polkit-1/rules.d/99-usb-mounting.rules <<EOF
    polkit.addRule(function(action, subject) {
    if (action.id == "org.freedesktop.udisks2.filesystem-mount-system" &&
    subject.isInGroup("users"))
    {
    return polkit.Result.YES;
    }
    });
    EOF

    It seems that for some reason you don't get prompted for authentication when attempting the mount so this will always allow it. I have just gotten tired and used a generic "if the user is in the wheel group then allow everything".

    Reply

    keithzg Reply:

    Interesting, I’ll have to keep that command around for once Polkit starts intruding on my own experience (so far I’ve mostly avoid the Gnome-camp stuff since I run Kubuntu on my desktops, so it’s generally a KDE+upstart stack).

    Reply

    digi_owl Reply:

    Isn’t that pretty much what Ts’o refers to as his “don’t bug me” file?

    https://plus.google.com/+TheodoreTso/posts/4W6rrMMvhWU

    Reply

    Alessandro Perucchi Reply:

    I had a problem with permission, and I tried this solution… and for me that wasn’t the solution. I’ve lost countless days/weeks to find a way to solve my problem and tried everything that I’ve found in internet a lost page from someone who had the solution that I needed… really a pain in the ass. Unfortunately I didn’t bookmarked it :-( but I know that these polkit, systemd, d-bus, c-groups, etc are not user friendly… and not even admin friendly in case of problem.

    Reply

  13. I think you meant “Vogon poetry”. :)

    probabilmente,
    Cthulhu

    Reply

    John Goerzen Reply:

    Hah! Yes I did. Can you tell I’m re-watching Babylon 5 but not re-reading HHGTG just now?

    Reply

    Graham Lee Reply:

    Hmm, and I came here to say that Vorlon poetry was probably more obtuse, but you’ve already edited it :).

    I think that what you’re describing is accurate, but isn’t new. There has long been an idea in this community that when faced with a bug one can just “use the source, Luke” to track down and fix it, in the face of no good documentation. The difference is that now all the low-hanging bugs have been fixed :).

    Reply

    digi_owl Reply:

    Ugh, reminds me of seeing someone in all seriousness suggesting the use of strace to figure out what the bleep systemd was doing (or why it was failing to do something).

    Thanks, i’ll rather stick to my dumb as bricks shell script, thank you very much.

  14. Try kwort… http://www.kwort.org
    I created it for that same reason… It’s clean, fast and it works like the old school Unix…
    sysvinit, no polkit, no hald, no udiskd, or any of those things, want devices to be mounted? Ok, fstab or root and manual mount.

    Reply

  15. I run jessie on everything including my servers. (4 laptops, 3 desktops and 2 servers)

    If you did this article before the deep freeze i would have agreed with you. it was a hell of problem getting things working; one of my laptops even stopped mounting CDs!

    But since maybe November i’ve upgraded/installed about 20+ pc’s with Jessie and haven’t had a single issue.

    Reply

  16. Hi John,
    have you checked Debian bug #646795 (https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=646795). I hit this when installing Jessie on my testing machine. After removing the mentioned entry in fstab everything worked for me. Beside this bug (which is obviously a bug in debian installer and not fixed properly since quite a time) Jessie works for me perfectly. I am more and more impressed how well things work out of the box by now :-) P.S. I am running stable on any of my production machines and try out testing now and then during the freeze.
    Regards and many many thanks to all DD and DM for making a great piece of technology!

    Reply

    jploz Reply:

    Forgot to mention: from a user perspective (my personal view), the debian bugtracker it is really complicated and confusing and I’ve never figured out how to use it efficiently. But I try my best!

    Reply

  17. The current way of the desktop Linux is “get with the program. run Gnome 3 with Systemd and all will be fine”. Those who don’t agree with that are irrelevant.

    Reply

  18. The world has also changed. Maybe what you see in systemd, polkit & co is just a response to that.

    Sudo gives root, and root gives unlimited access. That is not what we want in the systems and processes that are getting more and more complex. How to solve this is to have a matrix of actors (sets of users/processes/groups) and rights, and have a component that would cross-reference every request and decide to allow or deny it.

    Then you see the need for an event driven framework. If I see a usb stick, let’s mount it, if it contains photos, start shotwell. If it’s a mobile phone, start anoter app to sync up contact list and yet another for music playlist.

    In 2015, these are valid requirements from users.

    But wait, linux has UNIX’s rights management from the 70s. While it was groundbreaking in the 70s, good in the 00s, it’s obsolete today. But replacing it is a huge undertaking, with the fragmented nature of linux desktop as it is.

    I’m not surprised at all that moving to a refined rights management and event driven systems it a hard cookie to chew with most of linux desktop still in the 70s rights- and event-support-wise (dbus aside).

    But just as you’ve all put in a lot of effort to learn system5 init, sudo, /etc/passwd, later /etc/shadow, and a miriad of other little stuff you don’t even realize you know, please keep an open mind and learn what is now systemd, polkit and so. It’s a rough transition to a new world.

    Reply

    Alessandro Perucchi Reply:

    Well I’ve no problem with that… but if you could tell me where to find the documentation to troubleshoot systemd, polkit, d-bus, … problems… I have no idea where to look, and there are no real documentation telling what to do, where to look, how to solve things…. If there is, I would be more that happy to read them!!!! But as the writer of this blog, I’ve spent an unimaginable lost of time looking why my networkmanager didn’t authorized me to start/stop a network connection… and that just after a Fedora upgrade… and after years of looking from time to time and testing all advices found in internet, I’ve found an obscure webpage somewhere that had the solution to my problem (it was around the page 15 or 16 in a google search…)

    So I agree basically with your comment, but as long as there is no way to solve problems, and the only answer you get is “just reinstall your system and it will work”… then Linux is dead for me (after using it since 1992).

    Reply

    John Goerzen Reply:

    To be precise, sudo does not necessarily give root, and does not necessarily give a root shell. There are ways to be secure with sudoers. But let’s grant you that point for a moment.

    There are two questions here: is the concept a good one, and is the implementation a good one?

    A huge enemy of security and maintainability is complexity. Already we had UIDs, GIDs, ACLs, effective UIDs, etc. It was somewhat complex, but understandable for someone willing to put in the effort to learn. Now we get something more complex – where it gets very difficult to answer questions like “what user has access to this?” What’s more, it’s a solution in search of a problem. In wheezy, XFCE, Gnome, and KDE all mounted disks, connected the network, etc. just fine, even on a single system. I frankly don’t see the need.

    And now, the implementation. It’s a mess. An unmitigated disaster, even. When we have components that are important to mounting drives with a manpage as obtuse as the one I quoted in the post, or config files written in XML with obscure purposes, and few people understanding how the pieces fit together – this is not at all good.

    Reply

  19. You are not alone, and I am using Fedora. Apparently Fedora is working with Systemd since a very long time… and it works, and there is no problem… well according to my experience… this is all BS. As soon as you want to upgrade from Fedora 16 -> 17 -> 18 -> 19 -> 20 … not yet tested with 21… now, my wifi doesn’t work anymore, suspend doesn’t work anymore, I was plagued with some error of permission because the system didn’t recognized the UID 1000… which is me… bummer. Until after months (at least 10-12 months) of googling and testing all answers without any success, I could find one guy who gave me exactly what I needed.

    I just want that the Linux developpers and companies behind Linux stops their stupid “enhancement” of Linux and just begin to THINK… just that. The EGO of some people are so big that it damages the whole community… I’m using Linux since 1992, and I’ve never had any problem to solve ANY problem I had… until all these polkit, systemd, d-bus, cgroups, etc… etc.. etc… Now even by looking at the so called documentation… I have absolutely NO clues where to look… Ok, I could look at the source code… but wait… why should I do that???

    Now I am not anymore suggesting my colleagues and friends and family to switch to linux, because of the current state.

    Thank you for this post, and I feel exactly the same as you, not since a mere month… but since years… :-(

    Reply

  20. John, I too am feeling more helpless in the face of the increased complexity of our systems. I’ve run Sid for years and while I don’t have any glaring problems at the moment, save for systemd failing to shut down the machine after something has been updated, I really do not like the way things are headed. I’m a hands-on guy and don’t believe in wizardry and generally detest black boxes. My first hint of all of this was having to deal with udev rules some years ago. It has not gotten better since then.

    I have been following the discussion and look forward to the coming development of Devuan. I personally wish it would not have come to this, but I need to understand my systems. And no, for those that will reply to jump to *BSD, I am not prepared to do that. I’ve become familiar with the Linux kernel and GNU over the past 18 years and I’m not prepared to toss that knowledge overboard just yet. I also had a look at Guix, but in a similar manner I am loathe to learn a new packaging system and found the “store” somewhat confusing although the idea of being able to roll back a package intriguing, although that presumes that certain package won’t have bugs with a config file written by a newer version.

    At this time I am becoming more comfortable with the idea of a older/more stable/simpler system so long as security updates remain available. The only applications that would seem to need continuous updates are Web browsers and I don’t use the Debian offerings for those anyway.

    The past few years it seems as though I observed a lot of change for change’s sake coming through my systems. Little of it has improved my work flow or the minimal administration that my systems require. for the most part it seems as though there are more daemons running that do “some thing” but I can’t always figure out why it’s needed and then some time later that must have daemon is replaced by something else even less understood. It has gotten to the point, for me at least, that spending time trying to understand all of this stuff is a waste of time due to the natural churn. So I am looking for a project that values stability and a conservative approach to the base system. I don’t know that I have found it in an apt based system yet (perhaps I do need to go back to Slackware, but I have issues with doing that as well).

    My thoughts are rambling because I feel somewhat lost as of late. This coming from a guy who, by necessity, became reasonably proficient with GNU Autotools!

    73, Nate, N0NB

    Reply

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